Hello, Jordaan. Thanks again for the opportunity to ask you my humble questions. They might seem trivial to people who already know you, but I hope that this interview introduces you to new fans and listeners of alternative music. So let's get started. I think good music deserves its own name for a genre. What's a made-up genre that you think would best describe your style of music?
i have a really hard time answering questions about what 'kind' of music this band makes. i think it's easy to say it's folk music because we're playing with mostly acoustic instruments, the chord structures of the songs are usually fairly simple, and the songs are based around a story being told through words. all of those things are traditions in folk music.
but really i have no idea because, especially lately, the band is constantly changing. we also all listen to different music, and each have very eclectic tastes, so i have no idea. i bet everyone who's ever played in this band, past or present, would have a different answer.
To me, your lyrics were what initially made me want to check out more of your songs. They seem to be packed with amazingly disturbing metaphors, some of which, I think, people wouldn't even dare attempting to understand and visualize. You paint pictures with your words. If they were to be materialized, where would you hang them?
they have; they are; my bedroom.
Nice. You seem to present types of behavior and events that most people find disturbing or shocking in such a beautiful light. I love that. I love how you take things that people are shamed for, and you turn them into something completely acceptable, even beautiful. Is that really how you see things, or is that how you wish to see them, your art being a self-indulgent utopia?
i write about those things because they are happening to me and to people that i love and i need to talk about it. i need to talk about it without thinking about what's politically correct, or what's going to be seen as beautiful and what's going to be seen as disgusting. it's all kind of the same to me, in the end. or at least, i don't really think about the distinction between the two. things can be violent and loving at the same time.
I agree, in the sense that one person's love can be another person's torture... Anyway, do you have a "higher" purpose of your songs, other than entertainment? Perhaps a message that you want to subtly convey to society through your songs?
there's definitely things i am trying to say that are very important to me, but i don't really know how to sum them up here. the songs are personal and therefore political, but not political necessarily, if that makes sense. i have a lot of grandiose ideas about art and what it can do, for sure, beyond entertainment, and when i'm writing a song, "entertainment" is the last thing on my mind. it does come into play during a performance, though: because to a certain extent, no matter how natural and honest you're being during a performance, it is partially meant to entertain, to be thought-provoking, to be enjoyed for some reason or another.
Right, think I know what you're saying... I have a quote here from one of your songs: "The ghosts all say that God will save you". It seems to me like a cynical portrayal of religion, where people take advice from dead folks about an imaginary thing that would save them. Perhaps I completely misunderstood it... Can you tell me more about that song, and that quote in particular?
the song is pretty literally, actually. i wrote that song when i was seventeen, still living at home with my parents, going to high school. and i was having, whether real or not, a relationship in my bedroom with a ghost for a few years, which was perhaps hallucinatory.
Ouch. Ockham's razor has a sharp edge, indeed. Anyway... When I got used to your lyrics, I started appreciating the music behind them. I think you're a genius, vocal wise. I've never heard anyone else sing the way you do. It's not just your voice that I find unique, but also the melodies that you create with it. I noticed in your older songs, you were a bit shy to show off your skills, perhaps because you hadn't developed your own style yet? Tell us more about your journey of finding your own style. Who's your favorite singer that you think might have influenced you the most?
i started recording and releasing music before i knew what i was doing at all, so there's definitely been a transition. i was also seventeen when i started making records and my voice has just changed naturally since then. playing shows allowed me to have more confidence in my singing, and i hadn't actually played shows almost all when i made my first two records - they were made pretty much exclusively in solitary confinement. they were also recorded with bad equipment that i couldn't sing too loud with, otherwise it just sounded like terrible fuzz, and at night when i had to just be quieter in general.
most of my favourite singers are female. my favourite singer that's alive right now is diane cluck - she has so much control over her voice, it's astounding. there's still a lot of things i can't do with my voice that i wish i could. i really want to learn to yodel, for example.
You show such a wide range of talent. I read somewhere that you learned to play the guitar in just a few weeks. You also know how to play a bunch of other instruments, like the accordion, the piano, the saw, and I wonder what else. Are you a self-taught musician, or have you attended any music schools? How did you get into music?
my mother had a piano and an accordion while i was growing up, and i was given piano lessons on and off throughout my childhood, though i had a lot of trouble sitting still during them. in high school, i played bass clarinet in the high school band briefly. i learned the guitar because the accordion is heavy and the piano isn't really portable unless you have an electric one, which i don't. it took me a while to get the hang of it, but i recorded songs even though i couldn't really play it. i also have taught myself the saw and i'm trying to learn how to play the drums a bit, but i can basically only keep a 4/4 or a 3/4 beat. to be fair, i would say i play a lot of instruments just well enough to get by, but i can't play any very well.
You can't play all of the instruments at once, so obviously you need a band, at least for live performances... How did you guys find each other with the Horse Museum, and how long have you been playing together?
the horse museum formed really organically, in the latter half of 2007. i had written this album - divorce lawyers i shaved my head - and i wanted to start recording it with a band. so a small group of my friends started playing with me - that being sarah ayton, dee addario, jason aviss, and richard laviolette. richard had other things to focus on so we found jason mccrimmon to fill in on drums, and then we started recording the record, and more and more people kept getting added to the recording, and therefore the live band. the group got bigger and bigger for a while, and is now kind of imploding, changing, and getting smaller again.
You run the Oh!Map Records label. Most artists are obsessed with equipment. To me, the music behind the nice sound is what matters the most. The lo-fi sound that you guys have seems to really add to the genuinity of your music. Does equipment matter to you, and is your choice of sound a financial solution, or an aesthetic choice?
it's mostly financial. i really like a good recording, whether it's professional or 'lo-fi,' and there's certain sounds you can only get if you do it in your bedroom on a computer, and certain sounds you can only get it if you do it in a studio to a tapedeck. and i can appreciate both. ideally, i'd like to work with tape and analog equipment, but i can't really afford that right now. that's not going to stop me from making a record anyway, or doing the best i can with what i do have. the funny thing is, when this last album was finished, we all thought of it as being really 'hi-fi' (because, for us, it is/was) and every single article about us seems to mention that it's 'lo-fi.'
I'd call it mid-fi. I have a theory that the music industry is a scheme where people try to sell you shit you don't need. They overhype certain products for their quality of sound, and they keep propagating how anyone could become a rockstar with such and such equipment. I see a lot of bad consequences of that, one of them being that people wish to become rockstars just for the sake of it, and not because they have any good artistic ideas to share. Would you agree with me that there's a thing like that going on?
i definitely think there are artists, in all fields, doing it for reasons i maybe don't personally agree with. but at the same time, it's hard to decide 'why' art should be made; to put a maxim on that. there are some bands i really love that relied entirely on equipment - lots of really warm electronic music and 'shoegaze' (what a weird genre name), etc. but it also depends on what you're listening to music for - what you (this being a general 'you') want to get out of a piece of music. whether that's mood, or story, or whatever - i think it's all valid. that being said, there's a lot of really vapid and uninteresting music being made and that has been made. why anyone likes any music though is entirely personal, i think, and it can be debated, sure, but i don't think anything is necessarily definitive, either.
Good point, and I agree. It's all a matter of subjective opinion, when it comes to art. I guess the bigger harm is all these kids getting ripped off. Back to you, though. I've noticed that most of what you do is acoustic. Are you open to recording songs with electronic sounds in future releases, or do you prefer keeping things "unplugged"?
i like the idea of using electronic sounds eventually. i just don't really have any electric instruments, currently. i think the next record will have a bit more of a mixture, though live (for the time being, at least) it'll remain mostly acoustic. i like the idea that you can just play a show anywhere at any time with no set up required, other than being in tune with one another.
Some artists record with high noise levels on purpose, and they aim to make their sound as raw as possible. Hipsters dig it, but oh lookey here, they seem to not take too much fonding of you. What's your opinion on hipster culture and Pitchfork media?
to be honest, i think the definition of a 'hipster' is still kind of a grey area for me. i mean: i get the basics, but also the formula doesn't always equal the end result in my experience. and it sort of sucks that a lot of great things are associated with this culture of people who are regarded as 'apathetic.' because i know a lot of people who care about those things a lot, and who look really good when they go out at night, but they are not apathetic. so what are they then? my friend russ woods (aka 'tinyfolk') once defined the word 'hipster' really well, i think: 'a derogatory term used by fashionable young people to describe other fashionable young people they don't like.' it honestly just makes me feel like we haven't left high school or something.
Haha, nice. I think the dude hit the nail right on the head with that definition.
pitchfork is kind of a strange thing, and i don't really want to comment on it too much further than this: what i find so strange about it is how much their opinion matters to people. what i mean by that is: a good review from pitchfork can basically make or break a band's career right now. and so can a bad one. and when i talk to people about music, even if they hate pitchfork, they usually still read it. and most people can't even list five other music websites off the top of their head. which sort of sucks. they essentially are the controlling force of 'underground music' right now, and lots of people take their opinions way too seriously, for better and for worse.
Some people compare you to Jeff Magnum from Neutral Milk Hotel. Can you spot any similarities? According to Pitchfork Media, "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea" is a "true timeless masterpiece". Hipsters love that shit, and it's getting more the popular. So how come Pitchfork never told hipsters to listen to you?
pitchfork probably never reviewed our record because they recieve thousands of records to review every day. the music market is insanely oversatured right now, and especially in the last ten years or so, because it's so much more accessible to release your own record these days, to go on tour, to promote your band, etc., and so a lot more people are, plain and simple. 'in the aeroplane over the sea' is a great fucking record, that definitely has had an impact on me. and our album may seem similiar because of some of the instrumental influences and the fact that i'm also singing about sex in a very graphic way, but i think overall the records are very, very different. aeroplane is, for one, a million times more hopeful than everything i've ever written and it's also probably why it strikes a chord with so many people.
Is music enough for you to get by? Do live events pay off well?
right now, i work a job in the box office of a theater company in toronto and play shows when i can, and i barely make ends meet. in my free time, i'm trying to get a novel published and thinking about going back to school.
How can fans support you financially?
Is there any merch they can buy, or perhaps a PayPal address they could donate to?
the only merch we have at the moment is the album, basically. everything else is out of print. it can be ordered on our myspace / through our paypal (oh_map@hotmail.com).
What's the weirdest place you've ever played, and what was it like? How did it go?
probably this show i played in peacedale, rhode island. we were booked to play a festival, which ended up being the town festival, which ended up being full of children. i told the promoter that i felt uncomfortable playing for kids, and so we ended up playing in a parking lot nearby for a few teenagers. there's been a bunch of weird ones, though.
Oh man, I'm sure the kids would have loved it!
Speaking of children, what's the weirdest place you've ever had intercourse? (just kidding)
a greyhound bus station public rest room; in an office; a farm field; public parks...
Your song "Your Couch" makes me cry out with sympathy for you. A friend of mine went through a similar hell like that. How much of your material is based on personal experience, and what else inspires you to write new music?
pretty much everything is based on personal experience. if not directly my own, then someone close to me. if it didn't actually happen to me literally, then it happened to me in a dream or a daydream or in that strange waking state in between, which is where i usually am. i'm also inspired a lot by films and books. there's a really long list of things that have influenced / inspired me on our myspace.
Alright. Can you describe the range of reactions you get from the audience when you play live? Have you ever gotten in trouble, and maybe got thrown stuff at you?
audience reactions are definitely different all the time. we have played some very uncomfortable shows, and sometimes i think we just scare people. but usually the response is more positive, especially because at this point we know who to book shows with and who not to more often now. we've definitely been asked to stop mid-performance, and i've never had things thrown at me, but i've had people yell derogatory things at me.
It's nice that you found your own niche. What can your fans expect from you in the future?
Tell us more about your upcoming projects.
the horse museum is working on a 7" of two new(er) songs right now. we're also going to be releasing a digital split single with shelby sifers, where we each cover one of each other's songs. it might actually be a split with her and her partner tyler tadlock's new band, which is called peacock dreams. lots of members of this band are going on to do some really exciting things with their lives in other parts of the country, so this band will soon be a lot smaller. the next record, which we're going to start recording in the fall i think, is tentatively titled 'the decline of stupid fucking western civilization,' which is from a title card in gregg araki's film 'totally fucked up.'
Can't wait for all this! In your blog on myspace you mention releasing a Divorce Lawyers photo book. What's the progress there? I'm really curious what's inside that book.
the title 'divorce lawyers i shaved my head' was originally designated to a body of photography work documenting relationships, identity, illness, and sexuality. essentially: they are the literal version of the hyperbolic story happening on the album. right now i'm still working on pairing down the images (there are about 150) down to a reasonable size for publication, and in some cases, with the more sensitive subjects, trying to figure out if they are too personal to publish or not. some of the photographs are online, though: photos at flickr
Anything else you'd like to share?
i spent the last three hours or so at work filling this out. i hope it's ok.
sometimes i find these things very hard.
That was great, man. Thank you so much for this interview, and I wish you the best!
